Bridging the Education Gap: Talking Points’ Heejae Lim on Tech-Driven Family Engagement

In this interview, founder and CEO Heejae Lim recounts her journey from a business school idea to a social enterprise powerhouse, serving 4 million students and partnering with some of the largest school districts in the US. But what makes Talking Points stand out? It’s the app’s ability to improve educational outcomes. Hee Jae shares compelling research findings that demonstrate the app’s effectiveness in increasing course proficiency, reducing absenteeism, and driving more significant improvements for underserved students.

Before Talking Points, Heejae had worked on education reform for public schools in the Middle East; as chief of staff to a special advisor to the Secretary of Education in the UK; as a consultant at McKinsey, advising the Gates Foundation and Teach First UK. Among many other accomplishments, Heejae is an Echoing Green Fellow, Stanford Social Innovation Fellow, Ashoka Changemaker and Forbes 30 under 30 to change education.

Transcript

Jim Fruchterman [00:00]

Welcome to Tech Matters, a bi-weekly podcast about digital technology and social entrepreneurship. I’m your host, Jim Fruchterman. Over the course of this series, I’ll be talking to some amazing social change leaders about how they’re using tech to help tackle the wicked problems of the world. 

We’ll also learn from them about what it means to be a tech social entrepreneur, how to build a great tech team, exit strategies, the ethical use of data, finding money, of course, and finally, making sure that when you’re designing software, you’re putting people first. 

Today, I’ll be interviewing Heejae Lim, founder and CEO of Talking Points. I’ve had the chance to watch Talking Points evolve from its very beginning, a story that we’ll be sure to share today.

I really like Talking Points as a tech social enterprise for three big reasons. First, they’re a terrific example of a smartphone app that is highly successful. I think there’s so much to learn from great counter-examples, since my general advice is that 95% of apps for social good fail. Second, AI is also hard to apply successfully in social good applications, and Talking Point has thought through a great application of AI that brings real value to real human beings. And speaking of those human beings, my third point is that the holy grail of Ed Tech efforts, that is educational technology efforts, is to improve educational outcomes for students, especially disadvantaged kids. And Heejae’s insight was that she could have a huge impact not by building a better math or reading app, but instead by enabling parents to engage much more meaningfully with teachers.

Be sure to listen along to see how Heejae managed to lead her team to develop an outstanding app in that 5% who pull it off.

Heejae Lim [1:54]

Talking Points is a multilingual, universal family engagement platform. So we allow for two-way translated communication in over 145 languages. It’s a web and a mobile app for the school side, educators back in the day, but now all school district staff. And then they can send a message to families who then receive it in a mobile app or text messages and translate it in their own languages if they’re non-English speaking. And they can also, families can also send a message in their own language that then get translated back on the school side.

In addition, we really think about what are the systemic barriers that families and teachers and educators face in developing those meaningful relationships. So we have content support, we have an education glossary that really explains education terminology in their own languages, prompts to ask the teachers and so on. So, that’s at the core of what we do.

Jim [3:00]

Well, I remember, you know, I’ve been judging social business plan competitions for years. And early on, it was kind of like, “Oh, that’s nice. That’s a good try”. But I remember, you know, that year that I heard you describe what talking points would be, and I went, “Oh, my God, that could work!” And I think that was that it was that sort of thing like, no, this is really a viable social enterprise. And, and I think that at the core of social enterprises that work is a real social problem that real human beings have, that you’re proposing to help solve, as opposed to, “I’m going to use chat GPT somehow, I don’t know how”, but you know, or whatever the current magic button was.

Heejae [3:42]

Yeah, I think that the real problem that we are trying to solve, and it’s still a long way to go, is everyone knows that family engagement has a huge impact on student learning. So, schools know that, families sometimes know that. So developing those meaningful relationships between families and schools, super important to drive student success. But traditionally, it’s just been so hard to do well, because of these barriers that schools, teachers and families face, like language, but also mindsets, knowledge gaps, capacity gaps on both the schools and the families on how to do it well. And thinking about if we do it, is it going to make a difference? And traditionally, it’s been super high touch and cost-inefficient, I would say. And this is where the power of technology comes in, in making it scalable and efficient and being able to do it in an easy way, at low lift for both families and schools to be able to engage and build relationships with each other.

Jim [4:58]

Well, cool. So let’s take our listeners on the sort of the journey that you had as a social entrepreneur.

Heejae [5:05]

When I went to business school where you and I met Jim, I ended up pitching the idea of Talking Points in a local weekend hackathon. At the time, it was co-sponsored by a local school district. This was Oakland Unified School District. And the theme of that hackathon, which had to be technology-focused, was around community and family engagement. So the idea behind Talking Points had been brewing for quite a while in the back of my mind. And I pitched the idea at the hackathon. So it was somewhat accidental.

Jim [5:45]

And then, of course, you and I met when you kind of went to the next stage and actually entered sort of a social business plan competition at the Stanford Business School.

Heejae [5:55]

Yeah. So I mean, I think I’m so grateful for you to have encouraged me to make this a real organization. So I remember that so clearly, Jim, you said, “You know, Talking Points, it sounds like it seems like a great idea. Have you considered the nonprofit model as the governance structure?”, and it kind of just, I think, ran light bulbs in my head around, oh gosh, like this could be a nonprofit? You know, I could work on technology for good? So I think that was a very critical moment. I’m so grateful for that interaction that we had.

What happened next? So we won what the local hackathon called the Teachers’ Pick. And the idea was that because teachers were picking this idea that became Talking Points, and it was the name of the organization was still Talking Points at the time, so that hasn’t changed, and they said, you know, we are willing to pilot the idea in our classrooms. So, you know, I had to make something work. And so I ended up using Google Sheets to get the communication that these teachers were wanting to send to families, the text, I used kind of my classmates, it was a very international crowd, a lot of bilingual speakers to translate it into other languages where necessary. And then I found a texting software, which was a web app that I think had been used for a mobile sales kind of use case in Africa, but it was quite cheap. So I cobbled together these three tools to kind of eventually make, I didn’t know this term at the time, but the MVP of what became Talking Points. And teachers tried out the idea and you know, it kind of all started from then.

Jim [7:57]

And so MVP — minimum viable product. So you’re in business school, you’ve pitched this plan, you’ve built a minimum viable product and actually demonstrated to teachers and they go, yeah, please actually build this. And so, what was your sort of learning journey? And of course, along the way, how did you figure out how you were gonna actually make this into a sustainable social enterprise as opposed to sort of an initial tech prototype?

Heejae [8:25]

I would say, you know, I would say kind of the strongest signal for me at the time, you know, in terms of my career path… I was not and still am not one of those people who grew up and were like, “I want to be an entrepreneur, or I want to be a social entrepreneur”. It was just an idea. And at the time when I saw these teachers kind of really communicate with families, and sometimes, you know, I was reading, it probably had privacy concerns, thinking back. That wasn’t, you know, top of mind for either parties, including myself or the teachers. But some of these conversations I was reading were just so impactful. I thought, Oh, gosh, if, if this MVP didn’t exist, I don’t know how teachers and families would have a conversation like this one I’m reading.

An example of that was a family member, a mom saying, you know, if my kid is acting up in the classroom, it’s because we had to get a restraining order against my ex-husband, the father of the child. And it was a deeply kind of disturbing family matter that the teacher didn’t realize until the mom told this teacher and the teacher, I remember saying like, “Oh, wow, like, thank you so much for sharing. I had no idea. Now I know what’s going on at the home, I can actually adjust my teaching practices better”. So that was just one example I read. And I thought, wow, this has legs.

Initially, I, you know, I thought whatever it takes to get this product into the market is kind of my goal. It’s not my goal, my personal goal to be an entrepreneur, but we need to get this out there and, you know, make sure that it’s in the hands of more people. So I went around and actually pitched this idea to several organizations that were in the education technology ecosystem at the time. Unfortunately, they said, you know, we don’t see any kind of market value here, meaning kind of a value in driving profit, because most of the stakeholders that we were looking at were underserved communities and underserved school districts. So I thought, okay, well, if everyone’s saying no, there’s only one other path, which is for me to start the organization. So I applied for three grants, which were fellowships at the time. I thought, okay, if one of the three come through, then I will at least try it for a year. We were lucky enough to get all three funding in quick succession, which was awesome, and officially launched Talking Points in July of 2015.

Jim [11:31]

So that was a year after you finished your MBA?

Heejae [11:33]

Right after.

Jim [11:34]

That was right after you finished your MBA.

Heejae [11:35]

Yeah.

Jim [11:36]

And what were the three fellowships that you won?

Heejae [11:39]

Um, the first one was Echoing Green fellowship. It’s a social entrepreneurship fellowship. Um, the second was the Stanford Social Innovation fellowship. So, um, again, around social innovation. And then the third one that didn’t quite, um, I did, it didn’t quite happen at the same time — and that wasn’t so much a fellowship — was the Google Bay Area Impact Challenge. So that was the end of 2015, and I remember when they called me saying that we were a finalist, I literally cried because, um, I had not expected such a, you know, such a young organization to get to that stage.

Jim [12:22]

Well, obviously, they were excited about the potential, and Google knows a little bit about technology, so… you won the fellowships, you decided, well, the world needs this. You got the encouragement to do it. And so take us through, let’s say, the sustainability arc. So you decided that you should be a nonprofit. Then how do you actually fund Talking Points? How did you actually get into what your sustainability model is today?

Heejae [12:47]

Yeah, thank you for asking that. So first of all, I, you know, I come from a business background. So pre-business school and through business school, it was, you know, I worked for corporations and kind of come from that business training. So sustainability was always top of mind for me from the very beginning. I was thinking, okay, well, how do we actually generate revenue and earned revenue, even as a nonprofit? Because I think unlimited philanthropic funding is just a unicorn that one chases. And definitely unlimited philanthropic funding year after year is a unicorn that no one has seen, nor is viable. So I had that at the back of my mind.

Now, when we released Talking Points as a, you know, fully fledged product, let’s say, you know, July of 2015, again, a super basic version of the platform. It was free. There was no cost charged. And it was designed for individual teachers. So if you’re an individual teacher in the classroom, you could sign up to the web… at the time, it was just a web application, could sign up on the website, which was, by the way, DIYed on Squarespace, believe it or not. And so that was kind of how we got started. But towards, you know, the middle of that school year, around, let’s say, January to April and 2016, we started hearing kind of murmurings around, oh, like, how do we make sure that this is also usable by a school principal? And it was a middle school at the time. Or a collection of schools, as opposed to just individual teachers. And so my wheels started spinning thinking, okay, well, individual teachers might not necessarily have the disposable income, but schools and school districts do.

So we started co-designing with kind of the principals and the CTO of the school district at the time, and what could it look like to have a school product that was geared towards schools as opposed to individual teachers, and a pricing model around it. So, fast forward, we ended up launching the school product that summer, so summer of 2016, and got our first customer or set of customers, again, in that summer of 2016. And that continues to be kind of the foundation of the earned product, earned income product that we have now, that if you’re an institution, if you’re a school district, then we charge a fee for the partnership for the school and district product.

Jim [15:45]

Well, I mean, I think that idea of, we could be sustainable if the donors got bored. is a major breakthrough for a social enterprise. And that’s why, I mean, again, being a nonprofit does not mean not caring about income and revenue and customers, right?

So, well, cool. So you started off with a web-based product. You’ve mentioned an app-based product. And one of the things that I say is 95% of the time, apps don’t work because people, you know… but I really like to highlight the 5% of the time when they actually do work and why they work so that people say, oh, gee, if my thing looks like the successful app, maybe I should do it. But if it looks like the, you know, the 50 failed apps, maybe I won’t. So tell me about why you guys did an app and what’s the, why is it an upgrade or an additional set of capabilities or reaching a different audience than your web browser-based product?

Heejae [16:38]

Yeah, so I think this is kind of zooming out a little bit. We think about accessibility and universal kind of design as a core design principle. And it was a web-based product for teachers to start with and text messages. So that’s SMS messages only for the families. And then soon after about two, three years in, we started hearing, you know, teachers want to be able to access Talking Points on their mobile phones. They’re not sitting as if in front of a laptop or in front of a computer, as if they are, you know, an office worker. They are on the go. They are often, you know, trying to communicate with families in the mini breaks that they have from one class to the next. So convenience and flexibility of how to access talking points was going to be incredibly important from the teachers.

So from that kind of learning, we released the mobile app, mobile interface for Talking Points for teachers and eventually school and district administrators as well on the teacher side. So it was really kind of based on all observations of the user experience and, you know, how the teachers and school admins were interacting with Talking Points.

Heejae [18:01]

On the family end, we moved on from text messages to also supporting a mobile app for two reasons. One, we observed a dramatic increase in smartphone adoption, even during the period that Talking Points has been around. Data and Wi-Fi access have become much cheaper than let’s say back in 2015. So accessibility, not in the ADA sense, but just being able to access a mobile phone, mobile app has become a lot easier, convenient, and kind of the norm, even for the families we serve. Now, that’s not to say text messages we don’t support. because again, the universality is really important to us and being able to reach every single family, super important. So we also released a mobile app.

Now, it does also let you do a lot more richer experiences for the family. So for example, we allow speech to text, text to speech. We also have videos that teachers can record that then get sent to families in the teacher’s voice, but it’s also transcribed in their own languages. And, you know, that experience, you can still access those videos if you’re on text message, but the experience of, you know, watching that video is a lot easier if you have the mobile applications. Similar with education glossary. So kind of we have some educational content for families to interact with, understanding of the school system and explaining what these various terminologies are that teachers use when they get used. Again, that’s a lot easier done on the mobile app than via, you know, text messages that allow for just text only, and then you have to open the link and so on. So we are hoping that this kind of suite of interfaces help really with reaching every single family and making sure that Talking Points is a universal family engagement tool.

Jim [20:18]

Wow. Okay. So in terms of why an app made sense, it was accessibility so that more people get to use it in places. And then all of these enrichment opportunities in terms of having a more powerful experience.

And then I think the last thing is one of the reasons people’s apps fail is because people don’t have a reason to go back to the app. And I think what you’ve done is you’ve come up with a compelling reason why both teachers and families and other school staff are going to use this app because it’s an important part of their job or it’s really important to their kid. And so that makes this a compelling story why people will pick up the app and use it again.

Heejae [21:03]

Yeah, exactly. I think that kind of, you know, we are solving a real problem and need that both teachers and families had. And it’s not a nice to have like, let me just do this extra thing kind of application.

Jim [21:18]

So, you know, I think I’d like to pivot to some of the field-level issues where I think you’re doing some very exciting work and actually sharing how you think about it. And I’d like to expand in both, well, data and AI. I mean, they overlap a lot, but I think you guys make powerful use of both. So which one do you want to tackle first?

Heejae [21:42]

So interlinked! Your choice. [laugh]

Jim [21:46]

Well, let’s start with data and give some idea of people the scale that you’re operating at now so they know what kind of amount of data that you’re actually collecting.

Heejae [21:54]

Yeah. So this school year we’ll be serving around 4 million students, families across the US. And we are working with 10 of the 20 largest school districts in the US. And our conversational data set is hundreds of millions. I don’t actually know the exact number because that goes up by rapidly, day by day after day. And then in terms of if you really think about the number of data points that we have, that includes conversations or interactions, things like that, that would be in tens of billions in terms of our database. So yeah.

Jim [22:41]

Wow, okay, so you’ve got all this data, you’ve got conversational data, which can obviously power AI. I’m sure we’re gonna talk about that in a second. Talk about efficacy data or impact, or how do you know that this is working? Obviously, you’ve got a lot of volume, but I think you guys have some insights into what is and isn’t working.

Heejae [23:00]

Yeah thank you for asking that. So the most recent research that I was very excited to share, and it was probably the most proud, professional moment at Talking Points for me. Because, and I’ll share what it was, but it really just validated a lot of our theory of change and what we believe to be true, but we were able to prove that using data.

So we partnered with a third party. So a professor of economics at Babson College, and used quasi experimental research methods. So it’s, you know, it’s essentially controlling for the various factors that might differentiate a school’s experience, let’s say, or student demographics. So pretty rigorous, falling short of an RCT, but kind of the tier below the RCT. And…

Jim [23:56]

Randomized control trial for people who don’t know the the RCT lingo. Yep.

Heejae [24:00]

Yeah, thank you, Jim. So what we found was that the schools that had adopted Talking Points saw significantly positive improvements in all of the following. Course proficiency, so essentially grades for students in both maths and reading. State tests for maths, so standardized tests in reading in maths, as well as improvements and absenteeism. So most students actually attended the school and attended school for schools that had Talking Points. And the…

Jim [24:46]

Wow. And that last point is really big for school administrators because often they get paid more money the more attendance they have, right?

Heejae [24:53]

Yeah, yeah. And what was more important for us was that these results were even more significant and higher improvements for traditionally underserved students. So black and brown students, English language learners, special education students actually benefited even more from talking points than an average student. And think about, you know, we’re looking at the magnitude, the math gains through Talking Points in terms of standardized test scores were equivalent to about seven months of additional learning. And improved attendance actually drove around 2000 additional hours of students being at school.

And you talked about funding. So it actually drove around $160 per student more to the school district compared to the average cost of Talking Points, which is around, you know, it’s single digit. 

Jim [26:05]

So at least a 10X just on the money, but more than half of a school year of educational impact, which is obviously why you’re doing it.

So I mean, that’s the headline, which is the social impact of having Talking Points in a school district. And even more unusual, that it’s the lower income, the racially diverse, the special ed students that are benefiting even more because often when people do interventions, it’s the upper middle class white kids that tend to get the biggest impact of those interventions, for many of the reasons that, you know, we understand — more family engagement and the like. So you’re basically trying to offset that and it’s differentially making a bigger impact on the kids who are less advantaged. That’s incredible.

Jim [26:48]

And with all this data, I’m guessing — and of course, right now, AI is, you know, everyone’s talking about AI — you’re actually using AI to help people as opposed to make everyone terrified. So please, tell us more about using AI for good.

Heejae [27:03]

Gosh, so many areas where we’ve been using AI. So first of all, where we started using AI technology was about, I would say about four years ago, where we use our conversational data to generate translated data sets that then make our translational quality better, because a lot of the machine translation algorithms are based on average generic text in the web, let’s say. So how the machine translations work is they essentially scrape the web and think about on average text or average content, what does that look like from a translation perspective. We then augment those machine translation algorithms with our own data set that’s more educational context specific.

And to give you a sense of a tangible example, let’s imagine for a second that the word “sub” is used in a conversation. In our context at talking points, a sub is rarely going to mean a submarine, a sandwich. In the Talking Points context, it’s almost always going to be a substitute teacher. So the way that we can contextualize the translation to enhance understandability and really increase the quality of translation using custom machine learning translation models, using our data, using our own kind of human translators to generate that data and monitor quality has been critical to improving our translation quality. And we’re the only organization who does this in this industry.

Jim [29:11]

Wow. That’s a great example. And probably… is using translation your number one AI application?

Heejae [29:18]

Um, actually there’s a couple more.

Jim [29:20]

Okay. [laugh]

Heejae [29:22]

The second use case is right now, it’s primarily being in research. So there’s the efficacy research we talked about, but we also look at, okay, while given our data set — and by the way, our data set is very unique because of the communities we serve, we believe that no one else has kind of such rich data set focused on these students — we are able to analyze through topic classification, so meaning, reading large amounts of conversation and saying, in general, what is being discussed across the platform? And so we’ve pulled that conversation insight. So in general, across the entire platform, about 40% of conversations are around logistics, let’s say, and 10% are around student behavior.

Now, what does the research and family engagement say? The more that student behavior, student engagement, student learning is discussed between parents and teachers, the more likely that the students are going to do well. So we’re able to observe, this is what the best practice says in the research, but what does our data set tell us through AI to really think about, wow, there’s still a significant gap between what we see on the platform and what we see as best practices.

So what does that mean in terms of the opportunity for R&D in nudging more people towards the best practice behavior? But measuring that and measuring where we’re at, the baseline measuring, is there progress, and so on, we use AI models to be able to do that.

Jim [31:14]

So you just described the power of the nudge, right? That you were finding out that four times as many conversations were about logistics, which don’t have a big impact, as opposed to student behavior and performance and the like, which do have a big impact. I understood that, and I don’t know if this is a current feature or a future feature, that you’re also gonna nudge teachers who wrote very complicated messages. Do you, to basically make them simple? Is that something that works today?

Heejae [31:40]

Yeah, it does. So we call it a reading flag. And by reading flag, think about it a little like Grammarly. I don’t know if you use that kind of plugin, but it corrects your grammar as you write. So what we do is as teachers and you know, school staff are writing messages. If we find that that is above a fifth grade reading level, we actually flag that for the teachers and suggest a simplified version of that message. And the reason we do this is because we’re really just focused on this universal understandability of family.

There’s no point in families getting a message that’s perfectly translated if the family is not able to understand what it really means. And, you know, we think about like political campaigns, you’re meant to design the message and the communication towards a fifth grade reading level, because that really reaches everyone. So it’s one of the use cases that we also use AI to be able to power that.

Jim [32:50]

So that the parent understands what the teacher is talking about, whereas if they write at a 12th grade level, even if it’s translated into their language, they may not know that vocabulary in their own language. They just may not follow this. And something tells me the translation quality is better when it’s at the fifth grade level than it is at the 12th grade level. Is that part of it?

Heejae [33:06]

Of course. It helps everyone, for sure, yeah.

Jim [33:15]

Well, I think what’s amazing is the range of things that you’re using data and AI for that are all linked to this social impact of improving student performance, especially of the least served children in our schools. What other cool thing have we missed that you wanted to make sure that we worked in, something that you think that our listeners would like to know about Talking Points?

Heejae [33:40]

Yeah, I think I’m thinking about, you know, there’s been a lot of interest on the use cases of chatGPT. And it would be interesting to the audience to know that we also use chatGPT. And we actually have been way before chatGPT became public. We believe we were the first licensee as a nonprofit of GPT-3. And the way that we use that is to generate, as an example in our product, is to generate prompts and questions that families can ask teachers about their students.

So one of the observations that we’ve had is, you know, just because there’s a tool to communicate and engage each other doesn’t mean that that communication happens in a meaningful way. Research shows that parents asking simple questions like, how is my student doing? Or could you give me an update about, you know, Jim’s math assessment? Simple questions like that, especially from families that teachers have not heard from before, can really kind of spark more discussion and in turn lead to improve student outcomes.

Now, our observation is that not many families do that because they believe that they don’t need to. They believe that they cannot. Sometimes phrasing the questions is just really awkward and scary for them. So we use chatGPT to kind of lubricate the communication between teachers and parents by suggesting prompts and sentences and kind of writing text that they could communicate with as well.

Jim [35:29]
And how do you set up guardrails?

Heejae [35:30]

Yeah. Thank you. Such an important question. I think a couple of ways. One is, so you don’t want to introduce more risk by using it, right? So the parent and teacher prompts, like the risk there isn’t so high because the prompts are given to the families and teachers, but actually it is in their control to whether to send it, use it, and so on. So these are just suggestions, right? We wouldn’t want to use it as it stands now in the actual communication back and forth or live situations. So that’s one. Two, I think heavy monitoring and training using, again, your own data, your own tone, your contextual language, your contextual kind of situation so that it works for whichever social enterprise is using it. And for us, it’s within the educational context.

Jim [36:29]

Well, thanks for clarifying because I think that’s a great example of how you can use advanced technology, but in a way where you’re not taking some of these big risks, but still getting the benefits. I think you explained that really well.

I think this has been an awesome interview, Heejae, and I think my final question to you is I’m sure there’s a lot of people who go, gee, I want to be like Heejae when I grow up. And so what advice do you give to a budding person who might find themselves with an idea that won’t let go of them and they decide that they have to bring it to them?

Heejae [37:06]

Ooh, such a big question. I gotta say, I would say just do it. Just take the next step. And it sounds so easy, but I think, I think it might just seem so daunting to get started. If someone had told me, Heejae, eight years later, you’d be what, you know, you’d be serving 4 million families through this organization. Like, okay, plan the next eight years ahead. I would have given up, right?

So I think the secret to that was: let me just apply for this, these three sources of funding, see if it comes through. Let me launch the, you know, MVP to see what kind of impact it will have. Let me try to have a conversation around designing on earned income product for schools and see whether that gets us the next check. So I think it really is just what is the next thing that is important for the organization or even the idea or the product, even before it’s an organization, I think is probably the best advice that I was given and the best advice that I would give to others.

Jim [38:18]

The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. That’s all… great insights. Thanks so much, Heejae, for joining our podcast.

Heejae [38:26]

Thank you so much, Jim, for having me. It was so fun.

Jim [38:31]

We’ve just heard from Heejae Lim, founder and CEO of Talking Points. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Tech Matters podcast. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to send them to [email protected].

If you know somebody who’d enjoy this episode, or the entire podcast series, please share the link and feel free to leave a rating for us on your favorite podcasting platform. I’m your host, Jim Fruchterman. Thanks again for listening and for being interested in seeing technology serve all of humanity, not just the richest 10%.